Demonization = Demonization or why McGinn's Gun Free Zones really aren't that different from Jim Crow

 Several GunFolks, yours truly included, mull over the "but is banning gun owners really bigotry?" question...

[06:52] <+Freiheit> Its a bit of a stretch to compare gun owners to minorities
[06:52] <+Lee_TotC> No, it isn't
[06:52] <+Freiheit> yes it is
[06:52] <+Lee_TotC> Ok, convince me
[06:53] <+Freiheit> I was born with a shylock nose, I choose to own and carry firearms and exercise my rights
[06:53] <+Freiheit> CAn they ban skateboards and those stupid heelie shoes?
[06:53] <+Lee_TotC> In those photos in GC's post, insert Negroe, Jew, or Mexican in place of "Gun Owner"
[06:53] <+Freiheit> What about bibles?
[06:54] <+Freiheit> "gun owner" is not an ethnicity or race
[06:54] <+Freiheit> Its something I do not something I inherently am
[06:54] <+Freiheit> and who are you to tell me who i can and cant have on my own property
[06:54] <@GayCynic> ethnicity and the race are far from the only thing that bigotry and discrimination can target.
[06:55] <+Lee_TotC> I despise liberals, should I be allowed to ban them from property?
[06:55] <+Freiheit> yes
[06:55] <+Freiheit> You could conceivably post that customers must be armed
[06:55] <@GayCynic> and far be it from me to say you can't ban whatever you want from your property - but who are you to tell me I cannot firmly express my disdain for your choices, even in an economically punitive manner.
[06:55] <@GayCynic> Note that I very carefully do *not* call for "making a law"
[06:56] <+Freiheit> noted, and I very much appreciate that
[06:56] <@GayCynic> boycotts, sit-ins, customer discouragement campaigns...
[06:56] <+Freiheit> You can call for a boycott, I support you there
[06:56] <@GayCynic> free speech is a game EVERYONE can play :)
[06:56] <+Freiheit> What I disagree with is that I think its a stretch to compare RKBA to racial and ethnic discrimination
[06:57] <@GayCynic> and there's nothing wrong with going in to a restaurants busy hour with 50 of your best friends and ordering nothing but  coffee. Or water, if you can get away with it.
[06:57] <+Freiheit> yep
[06:57] <+Freiheit> What I see is a difference between "Hey fag get out of my bar" versus "No guns here, get out" (excuse my language as I am making a point)
[06:58] <+Freiheit> Discriminating against something you inherently are versus something you have or do
[06:58] <+Lee_TotC> So Freheit, are the likes of CSGV, Brady Campaign, DiFi, Carolyn "Shoulder thing" and others the equivalent of the KKK? If not, what then, are they?
[06:58] <@GayCynic> And I disagree when the tactics of exclusion and demonization are pretty much the same. Jim Crow didn't leap fully formed from the brow of some sister-humper...it was incremental. Let's squish it while it is small and manageable...
[06:59] <+Freiheit> hrmm..thinking about this
[06:59] <+Freiheit> So what about shops with "no schoolchildren" signs
[06:59] <@GayCynic> And I simply argue that demonization is demonization and whether its because of an inherent trait or a disfavored form of lawful conduct...should be quashed with great vigor.
[06:59] <@GayCynic> let the market decide, Freiheit.
[06:59] <+Freiheit> I can get behind "demonization is demonization"
[07:00] <@GayCynic> If enough folks are offended, those shops will go under.
[07:00] <+Lee_TotC> Ever heard about those "black devils?" 
[07:00] <+ChrisM> In a truly liberty based society, a property owner would be perfectly free to do both "Hey fag get out of my bar" and"No guns here, get out"... Of course, society would be perfectly free to shun that person into behaving nicely
[07:00] <+Lee_TotC> Or the "Negroe race cannot control his desires and is an animal?"
[07:00] <@GayCynic> OTOH, there are an awful lot of folks that like a quiet meal or snack...
[07:01] <+Freiheit> Where I'm coming from is that I ran around a crowd in high school that liked to call people Nazis a lot. Then I visited the camps. Calling the gym teacher a nazi for making you shut up in class is a long ways from burning you alive. Equating the immoral and unethical racial discrimination of the past to "no guns" signs has that same feeling for me
[07:01] <+Freiheit> I understand and agree with the point you are making, I support it fully, but I just dont like the path you took to get there.
[07:02] <+Lee_TotC> And yet what did the National Socialists do Freiheit to control the Jewish population?
[07:02] <@GayCynic> Meh. Some folks need visual aids for the hard of thinking.
[07:02] <+Freiheit> banned things
[07:02] <+Lee_TotC> banned things? 
[07:02] <+Lee_TotC> what things?
[07:02] <+Freiheit> books, firearms,
[07:02] <@GayCynic> and that was the short form of the rant which could go on for a dozen pages on LGBT history specifically...
[07:03] <+Freiheit> I see LGBT discrimination in the same category as race and ethcnicity, it is who you are.
[07:03] <@GayCynic> and ultimately sums as squish this whenever you see it, as swiftly as you can.
[07:03] <+Freiheit> agree vigorously
[07:03] <+Freiheit> see our enemies driven before us and so forth
[07:04] <+Lee_TotC> So are part of the gun culture?
[07:04] <@GayCynic> Freiheit, I'm also a gun owner and carry daily - at least partly BECAUSE I'm LGBT and have an enhanced targeting profile
[07:04] <+Lee_TotC> So are you*
[07:04] <+Freiheit> I am
[07:04] <+Freiheit> but I wasnt born to it, its not literally in my DNA like my skin color
[07:04] <+Lee_TotC> And so am I, and GC is part of both the gun culture and the LGBT culture
[07:05] <@GayCynic> It is my strong suspicion that a .45 jhp (ACP or LC) center of mass will slow the most aggressive basher
[07:05] <@GayCynic> Freiheit, by that argument *religious* discrimination is perfectly ok...as after all, religion is not inborn and can be abjured.
[07:05] <@GayCynic> far more easily than orientation, actually.
[07:05] <+Freiheit> hrmm
[07:05] <+Lee_TotC> So then is your ethnicity based on your culture?
[07:06] <+Lee_TotC> damn GC, that was a laser beam if I ever saw one. :)
[07:06] * @GayCynic smiles innocently
[07:06] * @GayCynic has been having this kind of argument for a *long* time
[07:06] <+Freiheit> I'm convinced